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Episode 8: Bowen Gines: Creating a Business With Low Fixed Costs Using Contract Labor

Updated: Sep 14, 2022

Bowen Gines

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Myth Contractor


Liz Sears, Nelson Barss, Bowen Gines

Liz Sears 00:01

Welcome to the Business greater than you podcast, where we dive deep into the stories of men and women who have successfully transcended the fragile solopreneur life, and built productive teams, with better lifestyle, and income.

Nelson Barss 00:13

I'm Nelson Barss, the founder and owner of the Utah Independent Mortgage Corp.

Liz Sears 00:18

And I'm Liz Sears, founder and co-owner of My Utah Agents.

Nelson Barss 00:21

We're excited for you to listen, interact and grow with us. So please share your comments below. And let's get started.

Liz Sears 00:33

All right, well, we're super excited for today's podcast episode with Bowen Gines owner of Authority Roofing… Utah? Authority roofing Utah, I never noticed that you had the name Utah at the end?

Nelson Barss 00:44

I don't think he does, does he?

Bowen Gines 00:46

Well, so there's an authority roofing in Texas that I didn't know a lot about until I was on the news, right? I was on the news for all the hailstorms happening. And then the news anchor- Well, whoever does their media stuff- pulled up all the logos and everything from authority roofing in Texas. And so in the end, it came up, and I'm like, “That's not me.” And she's like, "that's not you?" It was pretty embarrassing, I guess.

Liz Sears 01:16

Well, then, during our intro, we learned that one of the things you should do when you're starting a business is find out if somebody else already claimed it. You know, it's funny, my very first real estate logo, everything I made was “The Sears team”. And the reason why is because “Sears team” was taken but "the Sears team” was not. So that's how I ended up with that.

Nelson Barss 01:34

That's hard to do, Nationwide, though. I've checked the state website for business name availability.

Bowen Gines 01:40

When I first went into sheds, I was like, I need to be something unique, but something that kind of ties- So I called myself “stuff shed.” And Tuff Shed actually sent me a letter and was like, “hey, that's way too close.” And, you know, obviously they said, “well, it's different,” you know, it's still different. And I was so small, they didn't care. But they- so I changed it to, and I looke’d for, So I went from authority shed to just like, “Oh, I'll be authority roofing. And from that point I didn't check. All my accounts with suppliers and stuff were still authority shed, so I always go, “what would I be now,” so I’m always open to change. let's name it something different. I don't know.

Liz Sears 02:23

Bowen's awesome company. That’s why I'm not in marketing. Perfect, all right, well we’re super excited to talk to you today about your business.

Nelson Barss 02:34

Bowen is one of the... I love to think, Bowen is a roofer that does spend a lot of time on roofs, which I really admire, right, you run your business, you spend a lot of time drumming up business, you spend a lot of time doing bids, and managing the projects and the people, but you're, you're running your business, you're not installing roofs. And we'd love to find out how you do that. And, you know, give some tips to our listeners. We're all about building teams here. What we're trying to do is help people who are solopreneurs, kind of capped out with their personal production and income and lifestyle suffers when you're at that level, and to help them understand, help us learn, how to build a team that's profitable and better lifestyle at the same time. Tell us a little bit about your history- you’ve had a number of different businesses, we already know about the sheds and before that you were doing homes, right?

Bowen Gines 03:31

Yeah, so I guess I'd be a serial entrepreneur of sorts, I started lots of different businesses- and all of them I've made money at. Roofing finally was, like you said, one that I came to and it changed because I wasn't doing the work. So in my very first businesses I was the labor, you know- and the E Myth, you've read Michael Gerber's book, and he just like, “hey, your the technician becomes business owner.” And that's how most business, and construction especially, I think comes that way because you go from being the tile installer, to “I'm the tile businessman now” and I learned all the wrong ways to do it. But we started framing. So my grandfather was a general contractor, and so I grew up doing that, but then with my stepbrother, I grew up framing. So I was framing houses and then when I turned twenty-three, I got my general contractor's license and I started framing houses. So, when I was framing houses, I took on crews and then a general contractor would find us and say, “Hey, come frame the house for us!” So my first house, we were making good money as a framer. It was in Heber, we built this big house- I actually fell off the roof of that house.

Nelson Barss 04:55

Oh, no.

Bowen Gines 04:56


Liz Sears 04:58

Wow. I've heard you talk about how much of a proponent you are for safety harnesses and safety measures, is that why?

Bowen Gines 05:04

I went up to tell them, I said “you can't set the ladder this low,” and as I was saying it, the ladder comes out. So I fell down from the roof three stories onto the ladder onto the deck onto the- So luckily, I had a few breaks.

Nelson Barss 05:18

Yeah, momentum slowed down as you go. Yeah.

Bowen Gines 05:21

But I was always in the rafters, I was always the one setting the wood up, building the house. We were setting the trusses. So I grew up doing that. So, when I was framing, I had employees and then we had- it was the boom right before 2008. So right before that, before the crash happened, they were paying us ridiculous amounts of money to frame houses. Like, what I can build a house for now, I was getting for just framing a house in Park City, right? So my first contract was like $148,000 to frame a seven-thousand square foot home. And it was Joyce roofing, it was like stick framing, it takes more time. But he was just paying us a ridiculous amount of money. So even in the end, he didn't pay me everything he owed me. And I was still like, “I’m good.” Like, I couldn’t believe we were getting- it was just shocking, that I was getting paid that much money.

Nelson Barss 06:18

Does that happen a lot in construction? I hear stories of it sometimes.

Bowen Gines 06:23

No. Sometimes there's someone who needs something, is that what you mean? Life for pay?

Nelson Barss 06:25

You don't get paid what you're owed. From the subcontractor.

Bowen Gines 06:28

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I learned the hard way how to, for my jobs- the cash flow of it, right- so I learned the hard way how to take half upfront, if you don't take half upfront, you could get stuck with the entire bill, how to manage your materials through a supplier. So that's, I guess why I'm good at what I do now, because I learned the hard way through a lot of those. But if you’re buying all the materials, and you're not getting paid till the job's done, you already have a ton on the line. And most of those guys who are paying you have been through it all before, so they know way better than you how to work the law or how to say no or –

Nelson Barss 07:09

How to take advantage, or just be slow to pay or whatever.

Bowen Gines 07:13

Yeah, yeah. So I learned all the hard way, I guess. But anyway, so framing was really cool, but I had to be there, right? I wasn't out looking for other jobs, I wasn't like, “Hey, let's-“ like you were saying- “let's be safe. Let me worry about the morale of the workers.” You know, “get to work, let's go,” it was more of a, “let's just get it done.” type attitude. But I still had to do all the education parts where you have to teach people how to frame, you know?

Liz Sears 07:42

Yeah, the training and all that, of that people.

Nelson Barss 07:45

And I think the big trouble, I think a lot of people are into is you weren't out looking for other jobs. So one finishes, and now you have a minute to look up and go, “uh, what's next?”

Liz Sears 07:55

Bit more feast or famine that way.

Bowen Gines 07:57

Yeah. And that that's how it worked a lot in construction, too, and at that time, people were fighting to find contractors. So, for us, it was all word of mouth. I mean, how often you see a framer advertised? It’s like, so-and-so framers, we’re on TV, on a bilborad.

Nelson Barss 08:14

Barely even have a logo, right?

Bowen Gines 08:15

Yeah. No, it's like, if someone knows, you can frame, You're their- They drug ya into however many projects they need. So that was nice. But then, with 2008 the market crashed, I started doing sheds because everyone was moving out of big homes, moving in with their family. And everybody wanted sheds. So I was making really good money, but with only two people, you know, building a shed, or me myself, building the shed. So I could put on my headphones and build a shed in a day and make $2,000. But I didn't have shed after shed after shed like you would want. Like you think, “Oh, it's great money,” but I had a couple sheds every couple weeks. So it averaged out to just an okay income. And that's when I learned Search Engine Optimization. That's what I did a bunch of courses and stuff and found website marketing, doing search engine optimization.

Liz Sears 09:12

So that's how you started finding your more businesses, doing it online.

Bowen Gines 09:16

Yeah, so if you were in Ogden- and SEO was just barely, it was at the first when people were paying ridiculous amounts to have people do their SEO. And I was just in the first of it going- I could get a construction company, you'd say “hey, framing in Ogden,” and they would come up. So it was easy for me for sheds, sheds in Ogden and Authority Shed.

Nelson Barss 09:36

So the company you started was called Found Website Marketing.

Bowen Gines 09:39

Found Website Marketing. Yes.

Nelson Barss 09:40

Okay, just wanted to clarify that. So and were you still doing sheds at the same time?

Bowen Gines 9:44

Yeah, yeah. So I was still doing sheds, but I had people come to me who were roofers or in the construction trades where I was buying supplies from my suppliers and they were referring me to other… Everyone wanted their SEO done, and I want to be the first one to come up. Because business listings wasn't really a popular thing yet, you searched and there was ads, and then it was websites that would come up. You didn't have like Google business. And so SEO kind of changed when you went to Google business listings, it was like all SEO just went out. If you were a business in the area, then they wouldn't refer you for, you know. You could be a national first page listed, but a local business who did websites would come up over you, even though your listings were awesome. So there's constantly like all the panned updates and different things for SEO, where they slap everyone that was cheating. And so we went through all of that, but we were doing organic stuff. So our customers row was like, “wow, this is awesome.” So anyway, I still have a few websites that I do for people.

Nelson Barss 10:55

What was that company like in its in its heyday? Did you have employees at that company too? Or was it just...

Bowen Gines 11:01

I had a couple who did sales, and who called referral lists or things like that, yeah. But it was kind of the same as sheds where it's hit and miss, right? You get someone who was all in and you have a customer that was $1,300 a month, then you'd have someone who was like, “I can only afford a couple hundred a month” and you were just going on and doing search engine optimization, maybe creating a blog post or content for keyword stuff. And then there's people in the background, heightened pages and doing just keyword, keyword, keyword, keyword, you know, they were showing up in front of you, and you're like, “how are they doing this?” They don’t even have keywords on there. So that was really interesting from a business development standpoint, right? Because, for marketing, it was a different, different beast, SEO was.

Nelson Barss 11:48

So how did you end up in roofing?

Bowen Gines 11:50

So I was buying my shed shingles from a supplier in Ogden and I had done- he was the manager over there, it was the RSG roofing supply. And one of the salesman there, he’d give me my shed shingles, well I’d come in, and they're selling whole homes, when I just wanted a couple squares of shingles for a shed. So he's like, “oh, yeah, you can just have those, don't worry about it,” he knew, it was like no big deal to him, because it was like eighty bucks or whatever, for shingles. And so I'd be in their bone yard, they'd have enough left over from a whole house that I could just take and finish a shed. So, when I was doing that, some of the wind storms and stuff hit. And all of the workers there speak Spanish, you know, most of the crews. And at that time, I would bring a crew on, if I was doing a shed or a garage in someone's backyard, and they wanted the house done. I didn't know how to shingle, like I wasn't a shingler I can frame your house, if they want shingles up, I don't know what flashings are, what's gonna leak if I do it. And so that changed for me. And that was the one hundred percent when my business changed, was people were referring me roofs, and I didn't know how to do the technician part of the work. And so at that point, I was hiring someone who was better than me. So I'd show up and I'd say, “Is that how you're supposed to do it?” Until I kinda was learning. Because for a shed it was a straight shot. But when you have valleys and ridges and rakes…

Nelson Barss 13:23

See but now I think it's- I know, I've seen you come and do bids and talk roofs. And you know your stuff, right? And you also have that customer service ability. And that's cool that you're able to get there. Right, when you started, maybe you just knew you'd figure it out eventually.

Bowen Gines 13:40

Right. And that's how I did eventually, you're on a few jobs, you have guys come and install a roof for you that isn't done the right way, and another crew, you have another crew come look at it to fix it and say, “Well, you can't do that, you can't-“ “Oh,” and so I'm learning, how do I want it done, right? So now I would say I have more experience than the guys that I hire. But in the beginning I didn't. So now I'd say, “we do the flashings like this, because I know they won't leak, we do this.”

Nelson Barss 14:09

I find that a lot of times in my business, I want to be the smartest guy in the room. Right? It's like a pride thing that holds me back a lot and being able to just have, I don't know if it’s the confidence to be the dumbest guy in the room, and still run the show, still have the company, still be the one doing those jobs.

Bowen Gines 14:30

I think you're right on, it's like hiring an accountant, right? I don't know what write-offs and what- so I just go “What are we doing?” And you just hope that you find someone that, or that you're hiring someone who's way better at it than you and that you can just- because you do, as a business owner, you have to hand it off at some point, you have to hand like the technician side off at some point, and trust that he you might screw up a little, too, but you're gonna figure it out like I had to, or you're waiting better at it than me. So anyway, for roofing, that's how it changed for me, I started doing more and more roofs. So as I was doing more and more roofs, more and more crews wanted to work with me because I spoke Spanish, and their employers didn't speak Spanish. And so they could say, “hey, we did this thing. And this took us a little extra time, this detail did.” “Let me pay you a little more for it, right, that's not a big deal, but I know what you need, because I'm speaking your same language.” So that was an advantage to me. Having served a mission, and learned Spanish, that just happened to be like a great- So now I had all of these people that I I'm communicating- they want to do more work with me. So if I had a job, I was first on their list, right? “Oh, we like that guy. He pays us right, and he takes care of us and makes sure it's right.” So being able to share the profit of like, yeah, I'm making so much on a roof, and I know when something's going wrong, but what can I pay you to make it right for you? So now next time, you're gonna know, I can talk to him and say, “Hey, I need a little bit more for that job.” And so for me, my when that started to work out for me, and we had our first storm, you would get referrals, just tons of people who needed their roof done, and you couldn't find enough roofers. And so, I was just scheduling with them, I was saying, “Okay, come and do the roof.” And all I was doing was ordering materials, and then they'd show up in a day, tear the roof off, put it on, and I was like, “This is amazing.” And so in the morning, I was saying, “this roof we have to do,” and I'd order materials, and then I didn't have anything to do the rest of the day. And I was like, “I've been at work for an hour. And I have nothing to do because I can't go up and help those guys. They'd be like, ‘you don't know what you're doing. Just go back to the truck.’” And so that made the difference for me.

Nelson Barss 16:55

Where did you get those referrals? Because I think that's the value, right? The high value thing that you knew how to do was find the jobs. That's all that that's all you needed. And that's like the eighty-twenty rule. Right? You just started there, you never took on the rest of the eighty percent of the non-profitable things, you have the one thing that's profitable, but what is the trick in your mind to mastering that?

Bowen Gines 17:19

So in roofing, it's a little different because once you treat a customer right, they're going to refer their friends and in the event of a windstorm, which a windstorm always comes, the hail always comes, in any business, there's gonna be that time where there's so much work, like there's so many loans that need to be refinanced or so many homes that need to be sold. And if your positioning is that I'm in this place, and I'm treating people right, then the referral process happens, right? I wasn't doing very many roofs. But I had the ability to do more, because I had crews that could do it.

Nelson Barss 17:59

Crews, they were loyal to you and wanted to work for you.

Bowen Gines 18:02

And so even though they were doing work for other contractors, I was paying them a little bit more, I was taking care of them better.

Liz Sears 18:10

You know, you talk about taking care of them a little bit better, I know that I've had quite a bit of work done at my house, from different crews, you know, painting, concrete, things like that. And it's interesting to me, often, how unkind the person who's running the crew is, that they get really mad at them for making certain mistakes, and are very derogatory and things, and just from what I know of you, I can't imagine you being like that. So tell me a little bit about that type of management style.

Bowen Gines 18:39

Yeah, so I'd say in any business, the language, like for me, I can speak Spanish with them. But the language is also the same, like, well, what's important to them? Right? That's, I'd say it's Spanish, because I'm speaking Spanish, I can understand them, but with your own employees, or with your own contractors, like construction, what, like what is important to them? Like, it's not how many jobs they do, but if they got, like, if my guys got paid a little extra on a job than they were expecting, that's the world to them, like I was managing expectations, right? Like, I know, I'm getting paid this much for the job. That's what we've agreed to. And if I'm the one to bring up and say to them, “Well, you know, we did a little bit more of this” or “I couldn't get the trailer close to the house. So you had to haul it out there,” even though they were going to just include the extra. “Let me give you a few $100 Because that took more time for you” for them as like, Oh, wow. Like he appreciates my time, and they can be something small, right? It doesn't have to be a large gesture. It's just a few of those small gestures. Like I have a worker who drives a long ways to come to work, but like, “I know you spent more on gas, right because you're driving a long ways, but I still appreciate your help. Let me give you a little bit for gas,” right, but just takes that little pressure off. Like sucks. Take the life sucks out of it,

Nelson Barss 20:02

It's like, you're not trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip, right, you're not trying to get that last inch of profits that drives away your help, it drives away your employees or, in your case, you have subcontractors, right? You're basically $10.99, you have this awesome business model. There's not a lot of fixed costs for you, right? Is it all variable costs? Is it all variable costs? Is there anything that you have to pay every month, whether you have roofing jobs or not? I guess your vehicle.

Bowen Gines 20:30

Well, yeah. So my only cost that I would have, I guess. So when I show up to bid a job, if I get the work, then I have materials are fixed. I know the labor that's fixed, within a few $100, right, like I've seen maybe something there that I want to figure for. But other than that, if tomorrow, I had no work, then my guys are prioritizing to work for other guys that maybe they don't want to work with so much, right. But when I have a job, they're gonna make time for me. That's kind of an advantage. Roofing, it's a little bit different. Because you get crews, you get crews who have a few guys who are, you know, speak some English, they can communicate with homeowners. But a homeowner typically doesn't say, I'm going to hire a Spanish crew, because there's the fear of communication. So really, all my job is is communication. But really, as a business owner, that's all anyone's job is.

Nelson Barss 21:34

And managing expectations. Like you said, I think, is a is an art. And it affects your future, because you can do a really great job, you can bend over backwards and fix a lot of problems, but if you miss a deadline by a couple days, and you set that expectation too tight, they're so upset, right?

Bowen Gines 21:57

Yeah, I had a lady that was so mad at us because we had torn up, she had some flower beds, that- in my defense- were not maintained, just like, messy, right grown all over the... So I assumed it was okay to back the trailer up to there, put tarps down and click. Well, she's like, “your guys threw all the shingles off on those and, and it smashed all my flowers.” And I was like, “alright,” but I didn't say, you know, “no, that wasn't really maintained,” I said, “What can I do? I didn't, we weren't paying attention. I'm sorry. It was my fault.”

Nelson Barss 22:27

What a rare response, right?

Bowen Gines 22:27

And I said, “Can I write-“ you talking about tens of thousands of dollars for her roof, right? And I said, “can I discount a hundred dollars so that you can have someone come fix that if you want?” Oh, my gosh, she thought that was the greatest thing in the world. Right? And now she was a huge fan of us. Where before, it was like such a small thing that… And for me to get mad at the workers, and say, “I can't believe you guys did that,” and deduct their pay the hundred dollars. Which they would, my workers would be like, “okay, yeah, we're sorry about that.” Right. But to them, you know, I paid, I did something and, and I said, “Sorry, I should have-” it was my fault as the owner. So it was my fault, right? So ownership of it. I just feel like if you're the business owner, and something goes wrong, if you didn't very clearly train your people on that thing, how can I make them accountable? I can say, “well, I, I should have taught you that.”

Nelson Barss 23:30

One of the things we talk about a lot in our office is that we just don't blame other people, even if it's their fault. It just doesn't look good, right? We can't say, “oh, well, the appraiser, or the title company, or the underwriter...” And in the end, we're the ones who picked that title company. And we're the ones who picked that underwriter. It all comes back to us and the buck stops right there. I think that's just the mindset of wanting to build long term.

Liz Sears 23:53

Yeah, you know, what else I thought of, as you were talking about that, is when a customer or a client makes a complaint, a lot of times all they want is for the principle of the matter to be resolved in their mind and in their experience. And so, if they felt that you did something wrong, and they tell you, I think you did something wrong, and your responses to be defensive, “it wasn't me, it was them, that was so wrong,” you know, “or you should have maintained your flower bed,” then that just denies what they're seeking. So you just saying, “that was my fault, I’m sorry, how can I make it right?” Like you said, it's not surprising that that resolved it all by itself, and then offering to pay the money. The other thing that I love that you mentioned is not only did you make it right, in her perspective, but now you created a loyal raving fan, somebody who's going to refer to you and give you good reviews and all of that.

Bowen Gines 24:40

Yeah. I've always been with the referral side of it, for any business, I think is something that doesn't get taken into account a lot. Just one person down the road in three or four years is way more valuable than the few hundred dollars to make someone happy, or to, “Hey, I was wrong” or, to do something extra to on the roof that we figure…

Liz Sears 25:05

So, something that we've been teaching our agents lately is the two-millimeter changes. And I think this goes right along with what you're saying, is that there's all these different points throughout the transaction, or the job or whatever, where you can do these little extra things, you know, communicate here, ask a question there, provide a little extra value here, things like that. And at the end, your chances of getting a repeat deal, or referral, skyrocket. So at first, it feels like a waste of effort, all these extra things you're doing for no benefit right now. But then after you've been in the business for a while, you start to see the referrals, you start to see the repeat business, now it feels like an absolute waste to not do those teeny little things that are so easy. A couple hundred bucks or a hundred bucks for the flowerbed.

Nelson Barss 25:52

So, your team is very efficient, right? I'm a little jealous of the people that-

Liz Sears 26:01

I know, the no overhead? Oh, that’d be nice. I could be a roofer.

Nelson Barss 26:01

The no overhead, you don’t have a lot of risk involved. It's really all gain. Do you lose money on many jobs? Do you ever lose money on job overall?

Bowen Gines 26:12

No, not really. So I have some jobs- and my abilities in doing construction, I guess in general,

Nelson Barss 26:21

Yeah you got a long history.

Bowen Gines 26:22

Yeah. So if I have a roof and say- so we did one, we tore it all off. And we dried it in. So, my guys, so I have a thing because I have woken up in the middle of the night from a customer saying, “my roofs leaking.” So that's when my rules come into play, right? If a worker is going to work for me, I have the conversation with them of order of operations, right? What I expect to happen, and it's just so that I can sleep at night. The way a roof’s dried in, because when the storm comes in the middle of the night, I'm like, “it's okay.” Like I know that- but a roofer comes in and what we tear off of the roof in a day, we don't leave a roof exposed, gets dried in. So they know the weather, if I'm going to tear off this much, how long is it going to take me to dry in so I'm not there in the dark drying in it in. And so there's kind of the order of the things that I require of them that I say, you know, we need to do these things. And I feel like that's always something I have to go over with any group that I use. So they know what I want, not just what, because they're doing work for lots of roofers, they know what I want specifically. Yeah. So this roof, they tore it all off, we got it dried in, but there was this rainstorm that was just like sideway torrential, right, and all we've got’s on paper, so it's getting on the siding, kind of coming behind the paper into the house. So they get water damage in the house. So when I get the call, “Hey, water's coming in,” I say, “don't worry about it. I'll fix any problems there. I'll make sure it's right, we'll make sure things are dried out.” And so if I'm in there cutting out drywall and, you know, fixing insulation, or putting drywall back up and patching stuff and matching texture on the ceiling or whatever, right, that's an advantage to me, the really, half a day's worth of work to me, was a disaster to them. But its included, I fix it, you'll never see a bill for me saying, “Well, and we had to do this, we had to patch that thing or fix that thing.” So that's kind of a way that I can… it's an advantage to me.

Nelson Barss 28:29

Because you're not just a roofer, you've got- you’re a general contractor and you've got experience.

Bowen Gines 28:34

So I have a way to protect my risk, in a sense, but then again, having crews too that can take on lots and lots of jobs, that are willing to do work for me over other contractors is my advantage.

Nelson Barss 28:48

And I think there's something to be said about the way you delegate, right? I mean, if I'm trying to take something away from my business, how often do I you know, give a task or bring a new person in, it's like, go to it. And you bring in experienced roofing crews, you probably have worked with them before, but you still take the time to make sure they know your expectations.

Bowen Gines 29:09

Yeah. I think hiring any business, like hiring a real estate agent that's experienced or has contacts or- Like, and for you, someone who also has kind of- could come in and do loans, you know, with your company, that's… it's a huge advantage, even though it's scary to be hiring that type of person because you go “this is what I have to pay” or “this is what I have to do,” which is what I experienced early on, you know that was, so the very first year that that worked for me, the very first year that we had a windstorm, and there was a bunch of roofs going on. And I had the orders in, and I had the jobs lined up. And I had like maybe two weeks worth of roofs which was like ten or twelve roofs just lined up to go, and I was having materials delivered, but I got guys, I had guys who were like, “Yeah, we're gonna do the work” and we’d arranged a price. And they had started taking on the work for me. So I'd go out and I'd say, “Okay, gotta haul a trailer here and do this.” And that winter, we worked straight through the winter. And I played video games most of the winter. Because I didn't know what else to do, right? Like, I should be growing something, I should be doing something. But it was my first time that I was like, “I have all this free time.” And I didn't know what to do. So it's like, “I'm gonna play games,” I played games with my kids, so I sat around a lot. But in the mornings, I was up, going, and then that few hours, and then I was like, “that's it, I’m free.” And I was making the best money I've ever made, and I was like, “This is crazy. But guys were doing the work and they loved working for me. It's working the way you want, but then you have to find, at that point, I had to find a reason to do something. Because I really felt like, I'm like, I'm lazy. I’m not getting much work done, right, like I can't even do ten push-ups, I just felt, because I was used to being very physical. I was used to hauling lumber all day, I was used to carry and stuff. And so I was used to being fit, and feeling good. So when I was just like, Man, I feel like I'm putting on a lot of weight. And I just feel fat and lazy.

Nelson Barss 31:26

That’s interesting, challenge. So what did you turn to?

Bowen Gines 31:27

So I had to discover a new reason, right? A new something. So I had to look at my vision of what my goal was for business in construction had always been to provide for my family. Because that had always been my fight, to provide and make money. And so once I started making money, it wasn't a big enough “why” And so I could see how business grows and just plateaus, right? Because I was like, “this is crazy.” But then other roofers were telling me “oh, yeah, we do this much, you know, we do $5 million a year in materials, and I'm like, “what? This is insane!” And so there was so much potential to grow. And that was an average roofing company. And I was, you know, we were breaking the million mark on materials, in like gross, and I was just like, never made this much money in my entire life. This is crazy. But so that's when I found that I could take the additional money from the company. And I was using that to build homes. And so, now my winters, or my slow times, I'll get guys going on a roof, and I'm over framing a house, I'm digging and excavating a home, so I'm doing the work, pouring concrete. And so that's been kind of a, I can build that on the side. And something for me to do. So I wasn't rushed. I just I'm doing it as it goes as it. And that's been fun. Because my “why” turned into “how do I die and leave something that my wife is fine with?” That she'll be okay, she'll have a house that's paid for, she'll have an income that's coming in. Because if I die right now she has some money, but then she has to figure out how to pay for the home, because there's no residual income or passive income. So that's what I kind of, “okay, I have to have-” It gave me something for my family to look, I had to look further than my year or two years, or I had to look seven years, fourteen years into the future and say, “what does that look like for me? Now being the fat lazy guy that can't lift-“ Because at some point, you're gonna have to stop doing hard labor. Because you can't. So that was kind of my larger why.

Nelson Barss 33:45

Yeah, that's a cool place to get to. Where it's not any longer about just paying the bills every month, right, it’s like that challenge was, you know, my only focus all day, every day for so long. And all sudden, it's gone. That's a really cool story. So I do have another question. You have always, I know that you moved into commercial roofing, too, right? And it seems to me like you have this lack of fear to take on a next project that you've never done before. You did it, your very first roof, you had never done it, and you just kind of knew you didn't know what you're doing. How has that played into the growth of your business and your ability? Like how do you do that? Where's that?

Bowen Gines 34:30

Yeah. So I think early on when you're growing a business, you're taking a lot of risks from not having a job already. That kind of feels like, at first it feels like Man, this is dumb. Like I'm What am I doing? Like I need a I need income. Right? But for me, I kind of started out after working for contractors, I kind of started out knowing I can replace that income easy enough, because in contracting, if you're able, and I try to say to any contractor, I think if you are just a contractor and you know a trade, I could have you making six figures in two years. Easy. Because you are just a skilled laborer, and you can estimate jobs, you can get them done. And that's all contractors are looking for. So in construction, I would say it's kind of a cheat code. You know, if you've learned a trade, you can provide, you can earn an income. So, every job for me is a new boss, and a new adventure. A new problem. And so when I was taking on commercial, so one of the ones that I did take on, I was in, coatings, it started to come become a popular thin g. And Gaco has this huge coating system for roofs. And they had a guy clear out in Springville who has a huge commercial building, they do, they have tumbling and everything inside, right. But it's like three hundred square. So most of the roofs I was doing are like thirty square, you know, in comparison, and this commercial roof is three hundred square. So I'm like, “This is crazy.” And it's a coating. So you would go over the metal, so you had to prime, so I became a painter, you had to prime the whole roof, then you had to put the coating on. And I was like, “I'd really like to learn to do that.” And so I went to do a training because people told me, “there's a lot of money in coatings,” And I went to do a training and this guy had gone out to give him a bid. But I really didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know how to install the roof, right. But he, because I, I had gone out and done this training, and I went back east, right, went through all this training. And I was waiting for the plane to come back. And they called me and said, “We want you to do this roof.” And I was like, “Yeah, I know how to do the roof.” But I think there's an advantage to, to learning or, or saying I want to do something, you know, if you're religious, it's easy to go, the blessing of learning something new or putting yourself out there is that that's, you know, your heavenly Father in a sense, or God, whoever you're, like appreciates the effort of doing something. And if you're religious or you're not right, that karma

Liz Sears 37:17

Well, even if you're not religious, the term is universe rewards.

Nelson Barss 37:20

Yeah. And however you want to look at it, if you are pushing forward to do something, then then when the opportunity presents itself, you're ready for it, right? And so I came out to do this roof, and I remember going to pick up the check, right? I was nervous. I'm going out there. And this guy says another guy. But so I priced this job. And it was like $156,000 to do this guy's commercial roof. And he said, I had another guy who came, and he priced it at $148,000. So he was just under you. He said, “I like you more, will you do it for less?” And I was like, wow, you know, and I didn't like inside? I'm like, “Heck, Yes, I'll do it for less.” There's like, there's like $90,000 worth of profit on this job right after materials. And I'm like, This is insane. And I had heard that commercial roofing was that way, right? But you're dealing with one customer and the job's bigger. And usually people will own properties on multiple properties. So you built a relationship with one person, which how many roofs have to build thirty relationships to do that kind of work for you know, for that many people. And so when he trusted me to do that work, I remember taking the check out this was a I was still doing roofs I was making okay, money. This was before I was really like making like a windstorm or hail storm type money where you just have tons of work. And everyone just can't find roofers, right. There's just a demand. And so I remember taking this check and he did the first half was $70,000. And I was taking this check over to the bank deposit. And I was like, “what, like, this is insane. Like, I've never held a check for this much that's all mine, right? And I know that the profit on our job is even more than this. Because my materials were going to be sixty or seventy grand. And the whole job was a hundred and forty. And I was like This is crazy. But when I finished the job, because I was estimating the materials, when I finished the job, I took back $20,000 worth of materials. And I was like “what” like because I wanted to be safe on the job. And I was bidding everything and I was so scared I wasn't gonna, rigth, you're gonna screw up on this little. I'm talking like millimeters thick of material is gonna be $10,000 on the job if I don't get it right. And so when we finished and I had realized, wait, I did the math wrong, right, I'd added a third when I needed to add less than that. It was like, like 1.3 for the ups and downs of the roof to cover it correctly. And I was like, I got all this extra materials and they took it back for me. And they just stocked it again and gave me you know twenty grand and I was like Yeah, and so when I when I had that check I remember walking through Walmart going “I've made it. This is it.” Right? One job! I was making $25,000 in the year well, that's what you know, about 25 grand a year and just barely making ends meet when I was doing sheds and construction. And by the time you pay for materials and everything, and write offs, you know, you're claiming 25. And you're probably in the 50,000 range. But I took that check. And I was like, this is like, I don't even have to work for like, two years, I could just write live off of this. And I put the check in, I was walking around Walmart, I'm gonna reward myself and I walked around Walmart, and there was nothing there. I wanted. I was like, nothing. I was looking at all the TVs and big screen TVs, like, “I have a TV, I don't need a bigger TV.” Right, like, and I realized how spoiled I was my needs were met. Right? And I didn't want anything else. And that's when I had that struggle with; I have more money than I need. And more time, more time than I'd ever thought. Yeah. So I think that that struggle part is the, you know, in the first you have to realize it takes, like that sacrifice, of so long to learn your trade and to be good at it. And then to realize what, where the profit is to be made, right? And then to find somewhere where you fit, but then to go, I've made connections for several years. And I wasn’t, I tried all these other things, but I hadn't stopped, I just ended up in construction over and over and over again. But I hadn't, I made connections there, right with people and I built relationships there that you have to you can't be a year into your business go “I'm not making any money.” Right? There's some sacrifice, like the law of the harvest, right? You've got to, you have to sacrifice for a long time before you can reap the reward of everything else that comes, you know, once you you've been in your trade for, you know how long and you're finally like, man, now I'm finally at a place where I'm like, I feel good. Right? And I can give back.

Nelson Barss 41:55

That's a cool success. And I'm thinking about the moment when it all changed. And that was when you went from building sheds yourself, to bidding roof jobs, and someone else did the roof jobs, right? And most, most people who we talked to, they're building a team slowly, they're, they're hiring a couple people here and there and teaching them over time. And someday the goal is to step away and just be the business owner, right. And for you, it was like, you just started that way, or you didn't start that way, you flipped a switch to it, as soon as you decided roofing, and it was like, because you didn't know how to do roofs, right?

Liz Sears 42:31

It kind of forced you into not being the laborer

Bowen Gines 42:34

Not being, yeah, not being the technician. And I think that, and I think that that's kind of a secret to business too, is if you're hiring someone who can do the thing that you do, from start to finish, the sell portion of it, or the installation portion of it, or the accounting portion of it. If you're hiring someone, and you have to be there, which is when I was framing, I was the foreman, I had to be there saying, you know, this is how I wanted done this, and they had questions all the time. So you would be putting a person in that position. If you're the one, you know, taking phone calls, you're the one whatever is they're coming in, you're the one- then when you have someone that you're working with, you're doing that job already. So they don't they don't think that's their job. So when you start a business kind of saying, okay, my job is this until I hire someone to replace me, right? Like I'm doing the accounting, I'm managing my invoices. Until I hire someone that's their job. And then you have to hand it over to them and not be the they're asking you questions.

Nelson Barss 43:42

There's like a, an ego play in that too. I imagine when you're the foreman, and there's 10 guys coming to you all day asking questions, strokes, your ego, right? You're the boss, man. And it's almost the opposite. When you flip to roofing and you don't know anything. And you're like

“teach me,” like I dont know. And it takes a lot of humility. I think ego gets in the way. Sometimes.

Bowen Gines 44:08

I had a buddy who did HVAC. And he was the technician also, but he had a group of guys and he's so he was driving down the road on his bullet bike and got in an accident and was laid up for like six months, couldn’t do work, like broke some of his back right like that bad. And he said that's when his business changed because his technicians had to be the go-to person. And he wasn't able to be there. He couldn't answer their calls. He, you know, out on pain meds. He was in physical therapy. He said that changed my business for me. He said I became more profitable, because they were handling those things that I thought I had to handle. I'm the guy, I've got a handle, and he wouldn't. Yeah, but like you're saying it's an ego thing. Like I'm the boss. Like if there's a problem come to me, let's fix it the way I want it fixed and not realizing, you know, Joe Schmo, he can fix that problem. They can figure it out. You know?

Liz Sears 45:07

Yeah, one of our previous guests had mentioned about how you get your business to a point where you can leave for a week or two or a month, and your employees are like, finally. Let’s run with it. You know, nobody's in here doesn't nitpick in telling us how to do everything.

Bowen Gines 45:21

Yeah, and being forced into I think, was an answer for him. He said, he had to learn the hard way. Right? Like, yeah, that's how that's how it worked for roofing for me. So I had someone take over the technician job, and all of a sudden, I was like, Man, I can go find the next job. I can go, right, build relationships, I can go find another contractor who may need roofers down the road. So we grew really organically, when you would have a storm chaser would come through and grab roofs, we were still organic. So for me, I can grow and have referrals and have people want to do jobs. Now ultimately, I could make more money employing crews and paying them hourly, the crew wouldn't make as much money. They would work for me hourly, I would make more money. But then I would have a long time, I would have a lot more. See because I still I still have to pay for general liability. For workers comp, being a general contractor being over a subcontractor, you still have to pay for those things. So if someone doesn't pay their stuff, I have to pay for it. Someone's not covered to be on a roof. Right? If I have a crew come in, and they don't have their workers comp correct, well I have to cover that. And so there's a lot of things that I still have to pay for on top of-

Nelson Barss 46:40

So we did find some fixed costs for your business, we found insurance. What about your general liability, it’s per job? It’s still variable cost. There is nothing fixed cost in your life.

Bowen Gines 46:49

General liability is still- well, for worker’s comp it’s based on actual labor. So general liability is a year thing. Right?

Nelson Barss 47:01

Well, that's, that's an amazing, amazing business you've got. What advice do, what do you see contractors doing? That you just wish they would stop doing? They're doing it wrong? Do you have? Like, I think there are, there are probably a lot of trades listening. Or they will, you know, “hey, here's a roofer who's figured something out, I want to hear what he has to say.”

Liz Sears 47:19

Yeah, advice you would give to a business owner in trades.

Bowen Gines 47:21

Yeah trades, I think it's very often that a tradesman gets paid, on a job, if it's a $10,000 job and materials cost him $5,000. And labor cost him $1,000. Right. I think it's very common for him to say to himself, he made $4,000, and to go out and spend $4,000. And now I need the next job. So every job’s managed, and then everything that comes out is “I made $4000” instead of instead of setting up the cash flow, to go in the right places to maintain tax, tax money, because all this is stressful. So I think for construction businesses specifically, cash flow is the worst, right? They take too much out, they gotta go get the new truck, right. And that payment comes out of the company. And now the company, they've got to find, even though they're not seeing the way it's managed, and how much they're really making, right? So my argument is, you've made $4,000, but you've got taxes that's got to come out, you've got your savings for the company that's got to come out for marketing and advertising and whatever else. And so really, you maybe only made $2,000, because in your head as a contractor, If I only made $2,000, I didn't make enough for the month, I got to go to my next job. But I don't because I made $4000, I put it off and whatever. And then I get the next job, right, because I made enough. And I don't know that I didn't make enough. I think I made enough.

Nelson Barss 48:50

Just as a case of not doing the books and not looking?

Bowen Gines 48:53

Yeah. We might be good with measurements, but we're terrible with numbers.

Liz Sears 48:59

So have you had a bookkeeper? Do you have a bookkeeper?

Bowen Gines 49:01

Yes. And that is all the world of difference to know where I'm at.

Liz Sears 49:06

At what point would you recommend somebody hire a bookkeeper?

Bowen Gines 49:08

Very first. I would say your first hire in constraint, if you're a construction worker is someone for your accounting and bookkeeping. To say, this is where you're at, this is what you owe in taxes. And if you've got quarterlies you have to pay or...

Nelson Barss 49:23

Especially if you're doing payroll.

Bowen Gines 49:24

Right, there's a certain point where you'll just get to the end of the month and think “Man, I didn't make any-“ or the end of the year and “I didn't make any money this year because we got $10,000 in taxes.” You're like “how? I didn't make any money.” You just burn it, you just burn it up. Material, when you can return materials and do different things to save on your costs. But you're not paying attention to those costs because you don't even know it's a problem. So being aware of that, I think is, like I learned the hard way when I was doing sheds. I would build a shed and then say the shed’s $4,000 I told you I pay 2000 The materials and I made 2000 really, I didn't make $2,000 I still hadn't paid any taxes, I still hadn't paid. There's all these things like I hadn't saved any to set aside for the company, I didn't set any to save aside for my personal emergency fund, right. So that cash flow, I think is the most important thing that you know, because once you manage that the stress of the next job goes away. And I call it my “go to hell” fund. Because you can say to a job, that isn't enough money, “I have to take this job because I need the money.” You can say, “that's not quite what I need for that job. And I can wait, because I because I know where my money's at. And I have a little set aside.” And winter comes every year, and people get slow in construction. And it's like well Christmas comes every year. But you still gotta put it on the card. Like I didn't plan for it. Once again, contractor we know winters gonna get slow, but what are you setting aside for your few slow months, or when the market doesn't need roofers? Right? Like, it's great weather and there's no leak?

Liz Sears 51:02

Exactly, you know, we have a thing that we do that we teach our agents every single year. And I just realized it really applies to your line of work as well. And so being a hundred percent Commission is what most realtors are, and contractors as well. So what we teach them is have two bank accounts. And so give any insight on this if you want, but I think this will be good advice for quite a few of our listeners, is all of your money that you get for profit, So the 4000, the 2000, whatever goes into a business account, and it is not considered yours at all. And instead what you do is you pay yourself a salary, basically. And so we say, especially if you're cash flowing enough to have an LLC that you file taxes as an S corp, then you get benefits that way tax wise. So you pay yourself the minimum salary, you know, let's say on the fifth of the month, and then the rest of the money, you need to pay your bills as an owner dividend on the 20th. But the whole point is, is that you don't live out of your business account, you don't buy anything personal out of your business, you live on a budget out of your personal. And so all the money goes into the business, you get paid a salary each month, you live on your budget and your business account grows. And once it gets past a certain growth point, such as three months of expenses, or whatever it is, you make sure you have your money for your taxes, the money for your marketing, the money for whatever, that all gets paid out of business, and you still live on a salary. And your personal. What are your thoughts on that?

Bowen Gines 52:26

Yeah, so that big, that big roof that we did, it's been three or four years ago. I was so scared for taxes, right? So I set aside, all that money, like I made 90 grand, I did two roof coatings that year and made more than I'd ever made. And I had 75 or 80 grand sitting in the bank because I was like I'm not touching it. I know I'm gonna get taxed right? I know there’s gonna be a big tax.

Liz Sears 52:51

That foresight is actually quite admirable, by the way.

Bowen Gines 52:54

And then so I waited. And when the tax year came, right, and I had my taxes done, and my tax bill ended up being like 32 grand or something. And the lady, when she told me, right, they waited the whole year, and we hadn’t gone into quarterlies, and she's like, “so your taxes, you're paying 32,000, right?” And I'm like, “okay,” and she's like, “do we need to set up a payment plan? Or like, what are we gonna do?” Like, she's like, “You made a lot of money.” And she was afraid I didn't have any money. I'm like, “I'll just write a check.” And she's like, “Oh, okay. Yeah.”

Nelson Barss 53:32

Well, you were expecting that.

Bowen Gines 53:32

Yes, because I had learned the hard way when tax season would come around.

Nelson Barss 53:36

And this all comes from experience, right? You haven't shared all of the hard times you've been through, but you say you learn the hard way, it's not like you just figured this out when you were twenty-three and got your contractor's license.

Bowen Gines 53:47

So, what you were saying, Liz, is I'm on a budget, right? So, personally, I'm on a budget, first, “How much can I take and meet my needs?” was my very first question. So I said, “okay, if I'm paying myself $4,000 a month, or $5,000 a month, covers my mortgage, and all my living expenses.” And now I have to say to my wife, “honey, I know I'm making 10 or $15,000 a month, right? But I'm not really, we have to pay ourselves, like this budget.” Then it opened all the opportunities for my business, because now I had, when money came in, and I could save for my taxes or for whatever, I could have money sitting there, and I could say I have to have money for taxes. I have to have money for marketing. I have to have money for my emergency fund. For the business. What if I'm out of work for six months? Yeah. And that's just the way the market is right? Winter could be nasty or people, everything gets tight and people are like, I can't do that project right now. And that's what happened in 2008. I was $1.2 million in debt in 2008. And I had four homes. And just that's when, and that's how I learned the hard way.

Nelson Barss 55:06

You became very financially conservative after that experience.

Bowen Gines 55:10

Yes, I did. If I made money, I wasn't, I didn't want to do anything with interest. I didn't want to do any lending. I'd had hard money on spec homes. I had, I tried all the things, I guess. And so when my work went away, all the people who were in my homes moved, rent prices came down. I had people who, I got stuck with a mortgage for a few months, I had one family who was in- that maybe because I'm not, I don't have the heart of a slumlord, I guess, I don't know. But I like they couldn't make the rent because he was working for Wells cargo, the trailer company. And he lost his job. And so they're in the house for two months. And they can't pay me rent, right? They've given me a check. And it's bounced, “Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm trying to…” you know, he's trying to do whatever he can. There's no way that he can afford the house that he's in, that I own. And now I have to pay the mortgage. But I don't have work as a construction worker, it was like this whole Perfect Storm, right? And it's in one month, I was responsible for $12,000 in the second month, $24,000, worth of mortgages, right? On all these homes. So anyway, I short sold, you know, did a lot of stuff. And finally, I rented, right, I rented a small home in Roy for a long time until, and started to shed company while I was trying to get out of debt. And trying to get everything arranged. And like I had materials on houses, and I learned how to negotiate materials with, you know, with a lawyer, and I was scared at one point. And then so I learned a lot of things that I was like “I didn't know I could pay less for the materials,” eventually, that they would just take something, because everybody was you know, everybody had huge bills and huge. So yes, I learned the hard way.

Nelson Barss 57:01

And you emerged from that with a different mindset. Yeah, you do everything on a cash basis. But it's even beyond that, because you have no, you have no fixed costs. Right? You've built a life around low, low risk. And it's working out great for you. But you don't, this is what I want to point out, is you still have a team, right? You still have an amazing lifestyle, successful business that doesn’t take twelve hours a day,

Bowen Gines 57:32

I bought some crews who did stuff. General contracting, it's kind of the same, where if I'm general contracting at home, I'm bringing in electricians, I'm bringing in the plumbers, or I'm doing it myself, right. So when I'm building a house now if there's a trade that I can't get to or I don't want to, I can bring someone in to do drywall, is the same as the roofing for me. I'm really just managing and then I'm looking at their work and going. “Was it done right? Can I pay you yet?” Right. And so, yeah, that's kind of a- so I general contracting, in a sense has been that for me, yeah. Kinda giving me that freedom. I can take on twenty roofs in a week or I can take on none. And that's been awesome. Yeah, that's been really cool.

Nelson Barss 58:15

Alright. You ready for the rapid fire questions?

Liz Sears 58:19

I get to ask him this time!

Nelson Barss 58:19

You're gonna go for him? She doesn’t even need a cheat phone to look at to ask these questions.

Liz Sears 58:22

Yes, I do.

Nelson Barss 58:23

Oh, you do? Alright. You got ‘em memorized, come on.

Liz Sears 58:25

I actually might have them on my phone, too, I just realized. Okay, all right. We're gonna go into our rapid fire part. What is your favorite podcast?

Bowen Gines 58:34

My favorite podcast? How I built this with Guy Raz.

Liz Sears 58:39

I love that one. That one's fun.

Bowen Gines 58:42

That's probably one of my favorite ones.

Liz Sears 58:42

Perfect. What's your favorite business book?

Bowen Gines 58:44

I would probably say the E Myth.

Nelson Barss 58:49

I knew that was coming because you mentioned it many times.

Liz Sears 58:51


Bowen Gines 58:53

Yeah, and he has one that he does for contractors, too. But it's super interesting in the sense that you learn roles of a business, like that when you're talking about the technician and who's really, like the difference of being a business owner right then being the knowing what's the actual job that needs to be done? Which I never thought about.

Nelson Barss 59:11

I think we’re loosing the idea of the rapid fire, all of this has to fit into one minute.

Liz Sears 59:13

Oh, yeah, sorry. That's because this is my first time in a while. In one minute. How many hours a day do you work?

Bowen Gines 59:18

I work however many hours I want to work in a day.

Liz Sears 59:22

Oh, well then that's the answer to the second one, which is how many do you want to work?

Bowen Gines 59:25

Oh yeah. So it could be a few or it could be more, I tried to do more because now I've changed like my goals right? They're different. Which I had to learn the hard way.

Liz Sears 59:34

Love that. And then considering… Okay, so you've got the hours that your team works, the hours that you work, the hours- How many hours a week is that that you have to play with?

Bowen Gines 59:45

Yes. So, if I take on ten roofs, it could be a thousand man hours, because we have five or six guys on each crew, or I can be dealing with just my time. So, depending on who's doing what, right. And if I have a big house going on, right, you could have other crews doing other things that I am responsible for. So I guess. I don’t know.

Liz Sears 1:00:12

Love it. Depends on the week. So who do you really look up to him business as a role model? And why?

Bowen Gines 1:00:16

s role model? In business? My grandpa, he did- So he was a general contractor, but he did it himself, right. He's an excavator. But he, so he built it all himself, did most of himself, hired a few guys, but he was self employed. So he taught me the lessons to say, the difference between, right, a good business like mine, where you make good money can save good money, as opposed to an awesome business, right? Is hiring people is to being able to have people.

Liz Sears 1:00:46

Sweet. What's the best piece of advice you can give our listeners?

Bowen Gines 1:00:49

Best piece of advice would be: don't be so hard on yourself in the beginning, right? When you're starting a business, because it's gonna feel like, at times, you're not making back the money you want to, you're not. But to be in it, find something that you can be in it for the long haul, because it's gonna take four or five years until you're making decent money. And you're not till seven to twelve years that you're actually like, I'm making great money. So the sacrifice, right? Yeah. Well persistant.

Liz Sears 1:01:18

Bowen Gines with Authority Roofing. How can our listeners get in touch with you?

Bowen Gines 1:01:26

Authority roofing.

Liz Sears 1:01:27


Nelson Barss 1:01:30


Bowen Gines 1:01:30

Not Authority, don’t do that.

Nelson Barss 1:01:34

That’s the Texas Guy.

Bowen Gines 1:01:34 Right. Or? Right. That's my number on there. And then, yeah, if they want to listen to the few episodes we've done on my podcast, they can listen to that.

Nelson Barss 1:01:45

Tell us about that.

Bowen Gines 1:01:45

That's the Thirty Minute business, right? When we talk to people who are also, who built their business, with the struggles they went through. And we've got about twelve to fifteen episodes.

Nelson Barss 1:01:55

I had a chance to be on it. I loved it.

Bowen Gines 1:01:57

And you, Nelson, was on it.

Liz Sears 1:01:58

And I'm glad to be on it.

Bowen Gines 1:01:58

Liz still needs to be on it. Yeah, but I think it's way awesome. Because it kind of goes through from the start, to the struggles, right, and, and like yours, we get to talk about this specific thing that, to someone's business, I think they need to do to make it better. So. So I, I've enjoyed doing it. I hope it's worth listening to. But we're still just starting out.

Nelson Barss 1;02:24

And episodes are not 30 mins long?

Bowen Gines 1:02:25

They're not 30 minutes long. No, yeah, not really. The goal was to build the website, right. So you could go to and spend thirty minutes on your business. But yeah, the episodes are an hour.

Nelson Barss 1:02:38

Yeah, they're nice long form where you get to really dive in.

Bowen Gines 1:02:41

Yeah pick someone's brain, but so that is if you go on any of the podcasting services, right, like Google or Spotify or any of any of those, you go on and just search Bowen Gines. And you can find me on there, Thirty Minute Business doesn't come up as easy as if you search my name's a little more unique, Bowen.

Nelson Barss 1:03:02

Well, awesome Bowen, and thank you for your time. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for the details of your amazing business. Yeah, thank you very much.


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